Jeff, you are constantly repeating Chinese govt statements as truth. You know better than to repeat US govt statements or US (captured) mass media as truth, so you should know better than to do it with China. Any statements from any govt should be suspect as propaganda until you have hard evidence otherwise. Hence, regarding the Vandenbosch piece, a flow chart of a formal structure is not an authentic picture of how things really work in a society. As any reputable political economist knows.
Once you learn this and apply it across the board, you could become a good analyst and source of info about China, because you are a smart guy. Study and become a good political economist, which means expert in analyzing the real structure of power relations and its real flow chart. Start with Karl Marx. Then study how political economists like Michael Parenti and Michael Hudson analyze the political economy of the US Empire.
BTW, I am not necessarily anti-China, but clearly China has powerful capitalist factions, the claim that China is "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is at best a hypothesis of a society in constant flux.
Hi Karl, thank you for your nice comment on Substack.
It's difficult for Westerners to understand Chinese governance, because the systems are like night and day. The difference is that in the West, governance is aristocratic, autocratic, oligarchic, and top down, the rulers telling the masses and the people what to do. Also in the West, it is based on religious morals. My morals are superior to your morals.
Whereas, in China it is based on ethics. And there's only one rule in China and that is the Golden Rule,
Do not do unto others what you do not want done to yourself.
For thousands of years, the Chinese leadership have trusted the people and the people have trusted the leaders, the governments. And that is not true in the West, where the governments distrust the people and the people distrust the government. China is very Confucian. There's accountability in China. There is little to no accountability in the West, especially recently, since the 1980s for sure. And so, it's not even comparing apples and oranges. It is completely alien to the Western concept, as far as the Chinese government is concerned. Whether they tell the truth or not, all I care about is results, as do the Chinese people.
In fact, I just did a tweet today on Twitter that showed the dissatisfaction that Western citizens have with their governments. Approval ratings from 9-39%. Then, in a Western survey, not a Chinese one, the World Values Survey, 95% of the Chinese are happy with their government. That is the highest in the world. I think there was another one, Abu Dhabi or Dubai that was also about as high.
Thus, you really have to think differently. The Chinese government talks to their citizens like adults and Western governments talk to their citizens like children. Therefore, I'm not saying that everything that the Chinese government says is true, but all I can see are the results when I go there and travel there and talk to the people and how much better their quality of life is and their opportunities and their hopes for the future are compared to the declining West.
You mentioned Michael Parenti. I love Michael Parenti. I love Michael Hudson too. In fact, I've communicated with both of them. I've read Karl Marx. They're all excellent. At the same time, I'm looking at the practical results of Chinese governance and how Chinese leaders have communicated with their citizens for 5,000 years. If a government is not doing its job and that is maintaining peace, maintaining economic prosperity, social harmony, et cetera, there's a four-character saying in Chinese, “grab a stick and storm the palace”. Everybody will just storm the palace and demand that there be a change in leadership. That's real people’s democracy.
When was the last time a Western government was run out of office? Well, it was the French revolution that I can think of, and that only lasted for 24 years, because all of the monarchies in Europe, a coalition of aristocratic military destroying what was essentially a socialist revolution at that time.
I can tell you that I know this: in 200 AD, China was the biggest country in Asia, and the Roman Empire was the biggest country in the Western hemisphere. And the Chinese had nine times as much land and six times as many people, even though they both had similar resources. Humans are an asset. They are a resource. And the fact that the Chinese had six times as many citizens and nine times as much land tells you a lot about their ethical governance. Also, Rome ran on slavery. Without slavery, it couldn't survive, which is one of the reasons it collapsed. They just could not harvest enough slaves from their territorial expansion.
By the Middle Ages, 1100s-1200s, China had 50% of the world's GDP, 50% of the world's population, and 80% of the world's metropolitan citizens. People living in cities. This kind of development continued, even up until the Western Opium Wars, starting in 1839. India started to come on real strong. And China and India in the early 1800s, each had about 25% of the world's GDP. Of course, they were both destroyed by Western colonialism and imperialism in the 19th-20th centuries. England, then the United States came to the fore to capture all those productive forces.
That's basically it. I understand Westerners are very distrusting of governments in general, very distrusting of their leadership. And they should be, because for 3,000 years, Western governance has almost always been autocratic, oligarchic, aristocratic, elitist and corrupt to the core. Therefore, you should be suspicious where you live. The Chinese are not suspicious. And they accept what their government does for them, as long as they maintain peace, social harmony and economic prosperity – bring home the bacon, as we like to say in English.
As far as the validity of China's communism-socialism, here is an interview that discusses this topic,
That's a good exchange, though I find statements like 'for thousands of years the Chinese leadership have trusted the people and the people have trusted the leaders' hagiographic. At the same time current regimes boast of having lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty: if everything was so hunky dory, why were so many hundreds of millions in abject poverty? All because of the West? Is that the story. I find that hard to believe if so and if not then all was not well. Which is fine and no big deal. Nations have ups and downs, good and bad periods.
I was reading a paper about the Maritime Ban put in place by the conservative Mandarin class soon after Admiral He's historic voyages which were scrubbed from the Chinese archives and to this day remain controversial. (Basically, he mapped the world with a huge fleet using their recently developed ability to calculated longitude whilst on board a vessel and then the maritime community, including at some point Columbus, gradually got hold of copies of these charts.). But soon afterwards there was a Maritime Ban during which the entire economy foundered and was mainly run by coastal piracy along with bribes to the Mandarin class. This general piracy was the norm when the Westerners started to make it over regularly, they did not invent it rather the ideologically rigid Mandarin class did. In any case, it was a huge setback from which the nation is only now, many hundreds of years later, recovering as it once again relates fully with the rest of the world.
I grant that most of us cannot understand exactly what China is and how it fits into our view of how nations manage themselves. We also have little idea of how our own nations are governed and most of what we think we know are falshoods. But it is quite possible that China, though doing very well right now in their industrial revolution catch-up growth phase, has various hidden aspects too, some of which will later on turn out to be problematic.
But that they have had an unbroken experience of enlightened society for the past 5,000 years as they love to keep repeating is tosh. Just like America describing itself as a light unto all the other nations, a beacon of democracy and so forth.
Yes, Jeff, and your Fellow Travelers on “Seek Lies from Facts, here are just a few of the many horrendous examples of how the People’s Democratic Dictatorship “WORKS”.
It imprisons or murders anyone who challenges its totalitarian rule.
I am putting you Jeff, and all the other promoters of the CCP responsible for some 60 million + “Democides” since Mao toxically came to power on notice:
ALL of your hands are bloody with their lockups and deaths.
BEIJING'S 'BRIDGE MAN' PROTESTER PENG LIFA LEAVES LEGACY IN CHINA Newsweek, Oct 25, 2023 By Micah McCartney
Chinese dissident Peng Lifa, aka "Bridge Man," remains locked away, but a human rights activist told Newsweek the Nobel Peace Prize nominee left a lasting imprint on society by challenging the country's most powerful leader in decades.
On October 13, 2022, as China's draconian "zero COVID" measures dragged on, Peng draped a pair of large banners over the side of Beijing's Sitong Bridge. One labeled Xi a "national traitor." The other read: "We want food, not COVID tests. We want freedom, not lockdowns. We want to vote, not a leader. We want dignity, not lies. We are citizens, not slaves."
The lone demonstration took place three days before the 20th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party handed him an unprecedented third term.
Police detained Peng almost immediately, and censors scrambled to take down evidence of the banners from social media. To this day, entering Peng's name on Chinese social media yields no results. Protests are prohibited in China with few exceptions, and Xi Jinping is known to be sensitive about his image.
THIS IS THE POEM THAT GOT A CHINESE ACTIVIST SEVEN YEARS IN JAIL National Post Staff, Feb 10, 2012
Veteran Chinese activist Zhu Yufu has been jailed for seven years after being accused of “subversion of state power” by writing a poem
IT’S TIME By Zhu Yufu, translated by A. E. Clark and reprinted with permission It’s time, people of China! It’s time. The Square belongs to everyone. With your own two feet It’s time to head to the Square and make your choice. It’s time, people of China! It’s time. A song belongs to everyone. From your own throat It’s time to voice the song in your heart. It’s time, people of China! It’s time. China belongs to everyone. Of your own will It’s time to choose what China shall be.
AUTHORITIES PROHIBIT ZHU YUFU FROM VISITING HIS CRITICALLY ILL SISTER China Aid, Freedom For All, April 24, 2023
(Zhejiang) Authorities confiscated the passport of Zhu Yufu, a well-known veteran democracy activist in Zhejiang. He tried visiting his sister in Japan after years of house arrest. Zhu Yufu’s greatest wish is to visit his terminally ill sister in Japan. In recent days, officials rejected his request and confiscated his passport and visa. Zhu has kept a low profile during the five years since his release from prison. He refrained from media interviews and did not write pro-democracy articles.
Jeff, you are constantly repeating Chinese govt statements as truth. You know better than to repeat US govt statements or US (captured) mass media as truth, so you should know better than to do it with China. Any statements from any govt should be suspect as propaganda until you have hard evidence otherwise. Hence, regarding the Vandenbosch piece, a flow chart of a formal structure is not an authentic picture of how things really work in a society. As any reputable political economist knows.
Once you learn this and apply it across the board, you could become a good analyst and source of info about China, because you are a smart guy. Study and become a good political economist, which means expert in analyzing the real structure of power relations and its real flow chart. Start with Karl Marx. Then study how political economists like Michael Parenti and Michael Hudson analyze the political economy of the US Empire.
BTW, I am not necessarily anti-China, but clearly China has powerful capitalist factions, the claim that China is "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is at best a hypothesis of a society in constant flux.
Hi Karl, thank you for your nice comment on Substack.
It's difficult for Westerners to understand Chinese governance, because the systems are like night and day. The difference is that in the West, governance is aristocratic, autocratic, oligarchic, and top down, the rulers telling the masses and the people what to do. Also in the West, it is based on religious morals. My morals are superior to your morals.
Whereas, in China it is based on ethics. And there's only one rule in China and that is the Golden Rule,
Do not do unto others what you do not want done to yourself.
For thousands of years, the Chinese leadership have trusted the people and the people have trusted the leaders, the governments. And that is not true in the West, where the governments distrust the people and the people distrust the government. China is very Confucian. There's accountability in China. There is little to no accountability in the West, especially recently, since the 1980s for sure. And so, it's not even comparing apples and oranges. It is completely alien to the Western concept, as far as the Chinese government is concerned. Whether they tell the truth or not, all I care about is results, as do the Chinese people.
In fact, I just did a tweet today on Twitter that showed the dissatisfaction that Western citizens have with their governments. Approval ratings from 9-39%. Then, in a Western survey, not a Chinese one, the World Values Survey, 95% of the Chinese are happy with their government. That is the highest in the world. I think there was another one, Abu Dhabi or Dubai that was also about as high.
Thus, you really have to think differently. The Chinese government talks to their citizens like adults and Western governments talk to their citizens like children. Therefore, I'm not saying that everything that the Chinese government says is true, but all I can see are the results when I go there and travel there and talk to the people and how much better their quality of life is and their opportunities and their hopes for the future are compared to the declining West.
You mentioned Michael Parenti. I love Michael Parenti. I love Michael Hudson too. In fact, I've communicated with both of them. I've read Karl Marx. They're all excellent. At the same time, I'm looking at the practical results of Chinese governance and how Chinese leaders have communicated with their citizens for 5,000 years. If a government is not doing its job and that is maintaining peace, maintaining economic prosperity, social harmony, et cetera, there's a four-character saying in Chinese, “grab a stick and storm the palace”. Everybody will just storm the palace and demand that there be a change in leadership. That's real people’s democracy.
When was the last time a Western government was run out of office? Well, it was the French revolution that I can think of, and that only lasted for 24 years, because all of the monarchies in Europe, a coalition of aristocratic military destroying what was essentially a socialist revolution at that time.
I can tell you that I know this: in 200 AD, China was the biggest country in Asia, and the Roman Empire was the biggest country in the Western hemisphere. And the Chinese had nine times as much land and six times as many people, even though they both had similar resources. Humans are an asset. They are a resource. And the fact that the Chinese had six times as many citizens and nine times as much land tells you a lot about their ethical governance. Also, Rome ran on slavery. Without slavery, it couldn't survive, which is one of the reasons it collapsed. They just could not harvest enough slaves from their territorial expansion.
By the Middle Ages, 1100s-1200s, China had 50% of the world's GDP, 50% of the world's population, and 80% of the world's metropolitan citizens. People living in cities. This kind of development continued, even up until the Western Opium Wars, starting in 1839. India started to come on real strong. And China and India in the early 1800s, each had about 25% of the world's GDP. Of course, they were both destroyed by Western colonialism and imperialism in the 19th-20th centuries. England, then the United States came to the fore to capture all those productive forces.
That's basically it. I understand Westerners are very distrusting of governments in general, very distrusting of their leadership. And they should be, because for 3,000 years, Western governance has almost always been autocratic, oligarchic, aristocratic, elitist and corrupt to the core. Therefore, you should be suspicious where you live. The Chinese are not suspicious. And they accept what their government does for them, as long as they maintain peace, social harmony and economic prosperity – bring home the bacon, as we like to say in English.
As far as the validity of China's communism-socialism, here is an interview that discusses this topic,
https://chinarising.puntopress.com/2022/12/04/rebuttal-to-china-is-capitalist-the-religiosity-of-the-myth-of-chinese-capitalism-by-ron-leighton-dr-t-p-wilkinson-interviews-jeff-j-brown/
Thank you for your time.
Jeff
That's a good exchange, though I find statements like 'for thousands of years the Chinese leadership have trusted the people and the people have trusted the leaders' hagiographic. At the same time current regimes boast of having lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty: if everything was so hunky dory, why were so many hundreds of millions in abject poverty? All because of the West? Is that the story. I find that hard to believe if so and if not then all was not well. Which is fine and no big deal. Nations have ups and downs, good and bad periods.
I was reading a paper about the Maritime Ban put in place by the conservative Mandarin class soon after Admiral He's historic voyages which were scrubbed from the Chinese archives and to this day remain controversial. (Basically, he mapped the world with a huge fleet using their recently developed ability to calculated longitude whilst on board a vessel and then the maritime community, including at some point Columbus, gradually got hold of copies of these charts.). But soon afterwards there was a Maritime Ban during which the entire economy foundered and was mainly run by coastal piracy along with bribes to the Mandarin class. This general piracy was the norm when the Westerners started to make it over regularly, they did not invent it rather the ideologically rigid Mandarin class did. In any case, it was a huge setback from which the nation is only now, many hundreds of years later, recovering as it once again relates fully with the rest of the world.
I grant that most of us cannot understand exactly what China is and how it fits into our view of how nations manage themselves. We also have little idea of how our own nations are governed and most of what we think we know are falshoods. But it is quite possible that China, though doing very well right now in their industrial revolution catch-up growth phase, has various hidden aspects too, some of which will later on turn out to be problematic.
But that they have had an unbroken experience of enlightened society for the past 5,000 years as they love to keep repeating is tosh. Just like America describing itself as a light unto all the other nations, a beacon of democracy and so forth.
A short paper on Admiral He and the later Maritime Ban: https://baronbrasdor.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/china-hes-treasure-ship-voyages.pdf
Thanks Jeff. I hadn't seen your interview with Frans Vandenbosch until now. Great stuff. I will definitely be looking to source his book.
• Frans Vandenbosch shares his years living+working in China and book: Statecraft and Society in China - Jeff J. Brown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4R8wwerpyE
Thanks, JS. Yes, Frans' book is very good and informative.
A very nice and cultivated gentleman too.
Jeff
Yes, Jeff, and your Fellow Travelers on “Seek Lies from Facts, here are just a few of the many horrendous examples of how the People’s Democratic Dictatorship “WORKS”.
It imprisons or murders anyone who challenges its totalitarian rule.
I am putting you Jeff, and all the other promoters of the CCP responsible for some 60 million + “Democides” since Mao toxically came to power on notice:
ALL of your hands are bloody with their lockups and deaths.
BEIJING'S 'BRIDGE MAN' PROTESTER PENG LIFA LEAVES LEGACY IN CHINA Newsweek, Oct 25, 2023 By Micah McCartney
Chinese dissident Peng Lifa, aka "Bridge Man," remains locked away, but a human rights activist told Newsweek the Nobel Peace Prize nominee left a lasting imprint on society by challenging the country's most powerful leader in decades.
On October 13, 2022, as China's draconian "zero COVID" measures dragged on, Peng draped a pair of large banners over the side of Beijing's Sitong Bridge. One labeled Xi a "national traitor." The other read: "We want food, not COVID tests. We want freedom, not lockdowns. We want to vote, not a leader. We want dignity, not lies. We are citizens, not slaves."
The lone demonstration took place three days before the 20th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party handed him an unprecedented third term.
Police detained Peng almost immediately, and censors scrambled to take down evidence of the banners from social media. To this day, entering Peng's name on Chinese social media yields no results. Protests are prohibited in China with few exceptions, and Xi Jinping is known to be sensitive about his image.
https://www.newsweek.com/china-protest-peng-lifa-1837668
XIAO LIANG: DISSIDENT PAINTER WAS SENTENCED TO 1 YEAR AND 3 MONTHS IN JAIL Bitter Winter, 12/12/2023 Hu Zimo
His crime was that he painted a portrait of Peng Lifa, the man who hung banners with anti-Xi-Jinping slogans on a bridge in Beijing.
https://bitterwinter.org/xiao-liang-dissident-painter-was-sentenced-to-1-year-and-3-months-in-jail/
THIS IS THE POEM THAT GOT A CHINESE ACTIVIST SEVEN YEARS IN JAIL National Post Staff, Feb 10, 2012
Veteran Chinese activist Zhu Yufu has been jailed for seven years after being accused of “subversion of state power” by writing a poem
IT’S TIME By Zhu Yufu, translated by A. E. Clark and reprinted with permission It’s time, people of China! It’s time. The Square belongs to everyone. With your own two feet It’s time to head to the Square and make your choice. It’s time, people of China! It’s time. A song belongs to everyone. From your own throat It’s time to voice the song in your heart. It’s time, people of China! It’s time. China belongs to everyone. Of your own will It’s time to choose what China shall be.
https://nationalpost.com/news/this-is-the-poem-that-got-a-chinese-activist-seven-years-in-jail
AUTHORITIES PROHIBIT ZHU YUFU FROM VISITING HIS CRITICALLY ILL SISTER China Aid, Freedom For All, April 24, 2023
(Zhejiang) Authorities confiscated the passport of Zhu Yufu, a well-known veteran democracy activist in Zhejiang. He tried visiting his sister in Japan after years of house arrest. Zhu Yufu’s greatest wish is to visit his terminally ill sister in Japan. In recent days, officials rejected his request and confiscated his passport and visa. Zhu has kept a low profile during the five years since his release from prison. He refrained from media interviews and did not write pro-democracy articles.
https://chinaaid.org/uncensored-news/authorities-prohibit-zhu-yufu-from-visiting-his-critically-ill-sister/